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Jaroslav
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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:39 pm

crxfod wrote:
Jaroslav wrote:
I'd rather have club teams like DCM and Tasol GT in the db. Downside is that they'd have a very small race program. Upside is that it wouldn't be too bad if they hired a (example) Spanish rider.
Well, could be cool to have those teams in. But if we add DCM or any other African club, it would be strange not to add European club teams that perform in even much more races already in the DB. So I don't like the idea of adding club teams after all.
So you don't plan to have club teams in? I hadn't realized that.
What is the plan then? Every continental team and then those uci traing teams?

What is the plan with races? Will you add every uci race? national events?
Who'd race Tour of Thailand or Vuelta a Cuba if there's no club teams in the db?
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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:40 pm

crxfod wrote:
Fus87 wrote:
And as we're on the subject of Africa, South African champion Darren Lill signed a contract with MTN - Qhubeka.
Didn't he sign with Bonitas?
Yes he did Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:00 pm

Jaroslav wrote:
So you don't plan to have club teams in? I hadn't realized that.
What is the plan then? Every continental team and then those uci traing teams?
Not every continental one, but most of them. In fact we considered some minor teams (e.g. some from China) with small race programs not worth being added.

Jaroslav wrote:
What is the plan with races? Will you add every uci race? national events?
Who'd race Tour of Thailand or Vuelta a Cuba if there's no club teams in the db?
Same goes here. Not every UCI race is to be added (or has anyone a clue on who is going to ride the Golan races?). There are of course national events in the db, mostly from countries where there are several continental teams, e.g. Austrian Tchibo-Top-Tour, Denmark's Post Cup, national series races from Germany, USA or Britain.

And for the races you mentioned (I know, they're just examples) we try to get a starting field as realistic as possible, e.g.: Tour of Thailand: 8 participating teams are in the DB, filled up with other Asian continental teams like MPC, L2A, GGA, ...
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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:14 pm

Good answers. Thanks for clarifying.

Spotted Polygon Sweet Nice on the team list (psschht: they aren't a contintal team this year)
This is the first time ever I've indicated that an exotic team shouldn't be in a db scratch

I really like your project and you seem to make very wise choices in regards to limit the db.
I'll probably have to buy a copy of PCM2006 again since my old copy doesn't work any more geek

Usually I'd advocate filling the db with exotic club teams but in order to minimize your work I support your choices.
But please please add some (a lot) exotic riders as free agents
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Jaroslav
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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:17 pm

crxfod wrote:
Same goes here. Not every UCI race is to be added (or has anyone a clue on who is going to ride the Golan races?)
I don't understand the underlined part. Is it rhetorical question meaning "does anyone care who participates in Tour du very small and far far away place"?
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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:59 pm

Jaroslav wrote:
Spotted Polygon Sweet Nice on the team list (psschht: they aren't a contintal team this year)
This is the first time ever I've indicated that an exotic team shouldn't be in a db scratch
Hehe, I know, but for some "historical" reason PSN made it to the DB (I did a 2010 DB for PCM1 last year and took some parts of it to PCM2). And PSN was part of the continental circuit for some years, don't know why they didn't get a spot this year. We'll see, maybe the team is taken out of the DB anyway.

Jaroslav wrote:
But please please add some (a lot) exotic riders as free agents
They will be added for sure.

Jaroslav wrote:
I don't understand the underlined part. Is it rhetorical question meaning "does anyone care who participates in Tour du very small and far far away place"?
Kind of that. In fact there are two 1.2 races in the UCI calender called "Golan I" and "Golan II", but I don't see "big" teams doing this races. Think there will be mostly local club teams and some national selections from the region at it, so there's no need to add the race to the DB. But it was just an example, there are some more of those races (like Tour de Martinique or GP Chantal Biya).
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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:05 pm

Just shows how much I know Embarassed

If you need manual labour done that doesn't require specific skills like stagebuilding and jerseymaking let me know
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Fus87
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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:17 pm

Hello Jaroslav! Always good to have another advocate for obscure teams from far far away...

Jaroslav wrote:
crxfod wrote:
Fus87 wrote:
And as we're on the subject of Africa, South African champion Darren Lill signed a contract with MTN - Qhubeka.
Didn't he sign with Bonitas?
Yes he did Very Happy
Wishful thinking on my part. Of course it's Bonitas, honest mistake.

Jaroslav wrote:
crxfod wrote:
Same goes here. Not every UCI race is to be added (or has anyone a clue on who is going to ride the Golan races?)
I don't understand the underlined part. Is it rhetorical question meaning "does anyone care who participates in Tour du very small and far far away place"?
I'd say national teams from Syria, Iraq, Georgia, Armenia, some Turkish and Iranian Continental teams, maybe some European club teams...
Heck, the Golan races should be in after all.


Some more thoughts on the club teams: I understand that putting in African or Asian club teams will lead to the question why French, Belgian or Italian clubs aren't in. But I actually have a good argument for that: In Belgium, a club team's best rider will maybe be the 200th-best Belgian rider. In South Africa, the best rider actually is (was) the national champion and easily capable of riding WorldTour (his contract just didn't work out). So these teams have a relatively higher level.
And a team like GSP Algérie is a club team too, they just found some money and got a UCI licence. The same is even somewhat true for La Pomme Marseille.

I've said it before, but in my opinion the African races won't be as realistic without a Moroccan (and Eritrean, and Burkinabe...) team. Jelloul, Lahsaini & co. normally smoke every opposition (except in South Africa). They're far better than GSP Algérie, and the argument that the latter have a UCI licence doesn't mean a lot in my book: A Tour du Maroc without the local team fighting for the win isn't the same. And Ait el Attar or Ichou (who could be on a team via the ACCC) aren't even near the big Moroccans' level, it would be illogical to have them on a team and the star riders not.
And for God's sake, leave Polygon in.

Jaroslav mentioned the Vuelta a Cuba. That's of course a race that ought to be in the DB, but again we have the problem of the participating teams.

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sisse
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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:43 am

Hello all! First of all, thx so much for the work being put in this db, I love the Giant DB's and PCM6 (in my eyes still the best PCM, got bored again by PCM10), so I can't wait to play this baby! I took half an hour simming through the test-db you posted here, and see that a lot of things are looking good. Maybe many things are taken from other db's, but fe the scoutable talents you probably did yourself and all that looks promising!

@Jaroslav, Fus and possibly others asking for these exotic teams: maybe it's best that crxfod now focuses on finishing the things he had in mind allready, and don't bomb him too much by all kind of requests or whatever. Guys like us want to see small teams from Burkina Faso, Chili, Serbia or Wazichizonazistan, but all of us also want a release in the near future, while these tinny teams are often the ones asking the most work Wink If a first version of this db is finished, we can always try to make this db bigger and better, isn't it Wink

That said, I also think after some testing that the db could really use another 1-2 teams from both South-America (Gobierno Del Zulia and some more?) and Africa (that UCI Development-team fe) to really give the necessary exotic taste to the races on these continents Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:00 am

Would like to sim some further, but I'm getting a crash becos the Eddie Soens Memorial is missing. crxfod, can you tell me to what namefile that race is linked, I would otherwise replace it by some random race. Same counts for the East Midlands Cicle Classic Wink
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Fus87
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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:21 am

I'm not crxfod, but I can tell you anyway:
If you're using the v0.2, it's "foddb_2011_cont_13_eddiesoens.xml" and "foddb_2011_cont_12_eastmidlands.xml", respectively.
For the v0.1, it's "2007_cont_13_pendle.xml" and "2007_cont_12_eastmidlands.xml".

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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:11 pm

Tried to resample the scouting zones the last days. As we've got 11 continents with 7 spots each that makes a total of 77 available zones. So the problems are which countries to have zones for and how to group these zones better. What's fixed is that for each team in the DB it's home country is to be added as a single-country-zone. First try, hope to get some feedback:

Spoiler:
 
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sisse
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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:37 pm

Seems rather okay! Smile

Some ideas:
- Group 3: Libya could be added to Tunesia, that country also has quite some decent riders (as long as they aren't fighting now...)
- Group 5: Finland could be added to Sweden
- Group 6: Turkey could be sent to the group of the Middle-East and be replaced by Belarus (which seems to be missing now) in combination with Uzbekistan.
- Group 7 (Asia): missing here is Thailand. Maybe you could make 1 zone Taipeh-Hongkong and a new zone Thailand (with possibly also Vietnam)? With Indonesia you could also add the Philipines. (If you wish to keep Taipeh and Hongkong seperate, you could just add Thailand to Indonesia)
- Group 8 (Africa): maybe add Gabon and Cameroon to the group SEN and CIV? And Zambia to NAM and ZIM?
- Group 9: maybe throw AUS and NZL to the last group? In this group you can then make a seperate zone for Mexico and Cuba and split the zone of GUA_HON_CRC_PAN_DOM_TRI in two, fe GUA_HON_CRC_PAN (Middle-America) and DOM_TRI (Caribean).
- Group 10: Some hints: 72 Bolivia and Ecuador (same kind of riders, possibly you could add Peru as third country), 73 Chili and Uruguay, 74 Guadeloupe (French, it could then in fact be the third scouting zone for a French team like Europcar).
- Group 11: After the suggested changes in the previous groups you could do this: 75 IRI, 76 KGZ_AZE_ARM, 77 TUR, 78 UAE_OMN_QAT (+Bahrain), 79 EGY_SYR_IRQ (+ Israël?), 80 AUS, 81 NZL (alltough I wonder if it wouldn't be better to leave minitiny cyclingnations like KGZ_AZE_ARM and Iraq out, in order to be able to give Australia two regions or to split Egypt and Syria).

edit: You could also switch Guadeloupe to group 9 and GUA_HON_CRC_PAN to group 10 in this case to have some geographical logic.


Last edited by sisse on Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:59 pm

And for the split countries you could this:

1 FRA_1: North of France
2 FRA_2: South of France
3 BEL_1: Dutch part
4 BEL_2: French part
5 NED_1: Northern part
6 NED_2: Southern part
8 ITA_1: Northern part
9 ITA_2: Tuscany, Marche etc. (Middle part)
10 ITA_3: Southern part, including Sicily and Sardinia
19 ESP_1: Catalunya and surrounding regions
20 ESP_2: Andalucia and surrounding regions
21 ESP_Pais Vasco (looks like the 21 is hardcoded for Basque riders)
26 GER_1: Western part
27 GER_2: Eastern part
61 USA_1: Westcoast (or the North)
62 USA_2: Eastcoast (or the South)
And Australia could be split in the mainland and cyclingisland Tasmania.


Last edited by sisse on Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:12 pm

Some countries that I'm missing: Finland, Libya, Israel, Bosnia, Belarus, Georgia, Malta, Kuwait, Bahrain, Mongolia, Thailand, Vietnam, Philippines, Singapore, Cameroon, Gabon, Zambia, Puerto Rico, Belize, Nicaragua, Peru.

Edit: and Burundi

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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:45 pm

Jaroslav wrote:
Edit: and Burundi
But I can't ask for Morocco as a national team? geek
You've missed Jamaica, though. If Burundi is in, Jamaica should be too.

Kidding aside; sisse's suggestions are very good.
I like that Italy and Spain are the only countries with three zones, as they have the most pro cyclists. Although for Italy, I'd rather have:
8 ITA_1: Northern part
9 ITA_2: Tuscany, Marche etc. (Middle part)
10 ITA_3: Southern part, including Sicily and Sardinia
For Germany, I'd prefer North/South over East/West.
I think splitting Australia in two zones (whether it's mainland and Tasmania or something else) is a good idea.

38 LAT
39 LTU_EST
Does Latvia really need its own zone? I must be crazy to suggest this, but if you need another zone somewhere this would be the place to take it from. But of course if you want to stick to the "1 zone per team country" principle it's bound to stay in.

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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:17 pm

Some interesting points by Jaroslav and Fus here! So I changed my suggestions a lil bit, fe I missed that Finland was not in the list...
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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:25 pm

Thanks for all your suggestions. Tried to apply most of them, although not every single country could be taken care of.

Totally forgot to add Finland (shame on me) - so I re-merged the Baltic countries to a single zone and gave Finland the open spot.

Really like the idea of having those French oversea territories as a zone to give France a third spot. Australia stays one zone, no spot left to split it up. But there will be enough talents available at this zone. Looks like this now:

Spoiler:
 

Btw: I will not be online the next days (not before Sunday).
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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:33 pm

crxfod wrote:
Thanks for all your suggestions. Tried to apply most of them, although not every single country could be taken care of.

Totally forgot to add Finland (shame on me) - so I re-merged the Baltic countries to a single zone and gave Finland the open spot.

Really like the idea of having those French oversea territories as a zone to give France a third spot. Australia stays one zone, no spot left to split it up. But there will be enough talents available at this zone. Looks like this now:

Spoiler:
 

Btw: I will not be online the next days (not before Sunday).

Looking good! Good luck in realizing it now Wink
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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:22 pm

Just to let you know what has happened the last days:
  1. New scouting zones now implemented and tested - looks good, teams now scout in an even more realistic way (because of the new single country zones)

  2. Some more races added (National championships ITT for NOR, RSA, ...; Tour of Rwanda; Tour of Eritrea)

  3. (Provisionally) added two more teams along with the African CCC: Equipe Nationale du Maroc and Eritrean National Cycling Team (tests going on, really want to see how they behave on transfers for 2012...)

Any news from your side?
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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:11 pm

I like no. 3. Cool
Hoping the tests go the way we want them to go...


I don't have much time this week (exams). And after that I'm in for a break, and will only do something for the DB if/when I really want.
But I'll try to finish the World Champs courses, they're my top priority for now.

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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:36 pm

Fus87 wrote:
I don't have much time this week (exams). And after that I'm in for a break, and will only do something for the DB if/when I really want.
But I'll try to finish the World Champs courses, they're my top priority for now.
No problem, I've got some exams too next week, so I'll also have to step back.


Btw: Here's one for all of you who want to contribute:

I uploaded an Excel-Sheet with all riders currently in the database. If anyone wants to help to get the stats to where they've got to, please download the file and do some updates. Please mark all riders you've changed (e.g. by setting the line's background color to yellow) before sending the sheet to me via mail.

Cyclists.xlsx
Cyclists.xls (Excel 97-2003)


Last edited by crxfod on Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:10 pm

Both links are to the XLSX file. Just so you know... Wink

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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:22 pm

I can't use xlsx.
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PostSubject: Re: [fodDB 2011] Discussion   Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:05 pm

Fus87 wrote:
Both links are to the XLSX file. Just so you know... Wink

Sorry Embarassed Link is updated now.
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